1. If you want to stay out of troubles, do not collect them.
2. If you collect: Look for an reliabel Thai/Burmese man to check them.
3. Please, buy not these items (and big ones) from E-bay.
4. Buy the book from Gear: "Earth to Heaven".

I wiil give some pictures:

image 1


image 2


image 3


image 4


image 5

Willie

Hallo Willie,
Your messages are very helpful. Hopefully you made only the pictures of these "weights" and you did not buy any of them. It is amazing, that these pumpkin hinthas which belong to the most rare weights in Burma are falsified in enormous numbers because they are so attractive. Most of them can be identified as imitations quite easily. Sometimes it is a bit more difficult. Have a look at the good discussion under "I have got this picture from another collector". I wrote something on the pegmatite core pumpkins in "Some new weights from Burma 2008". An original piece you see in "Imitations and forgeries against genuine weights".
Do not trust the dealers too much. Normally they know less about the weights than you do, and they can tell you a special story on every "weight" they want to sell!
All the best
hartmutmollat

As you, mr. Mollat, made the suggestion that these weights are immitations I am forced to give a reply.
I put on the page 5 "easy to see that this is a pumpkin weight".
Wear and tear, some reddish, some greenish, rocky, all bronze (so not brass). Besides they have a good "Hintha look" (good impression).
No extra's like dots, smiling face, chest decoration, no marks on the base (smaller ones), etc.
I extra did not put pumpkin weights on the page with a lot of "patina" (smooth ones), because this would be to difficult for most of the people.
These weights are checked, not only by me, but also checked by 3 different Thai (antique) weight sellers (apart from each other) , who have no immitations in their shop (I am not blind).
And now you tell me and everybody else that without seeing the downside of the base, not knowing the weight in grammes, not seen the other marks on the base of the big one, no closer look at the material, not looking it from all sides and having it in your hand.
That I should hopefully only made pictures ! This is really superior !!
In your reply you refer to "immitations and forgeries agaist genuine weigts".
The pumpkin you put on the page you really don't need to tape it partly. A pumpkin they cannot copy. An expert will ALWAYS see it.
The base of your pumpkin is only "bronze" you tell us. According Gear page 45 and 48 the base of bigger pumpkins are stone-cored (pegmatite) with a shell
of bronze (1 mm.) around it. So yours is very special ??
For more pumpkin weights and information see www.lasieexotique.com .
In "immitations and forgeries etc. ..." mr. Owen gives you already an answer, which I think you did not understand !
On many "items" you write about I shake my head. Several times good weights you call fake or probably immitation.
A probably immitation means you clearly don't know it. Than it is more wise to be silence !
It is for me clear hat we have a different view. I also think that collectors are afraid of remarks without fundation. As result they not show their weights.
I will not tell somebody (where everybody can see) that his weight is not what it should be.
If somebody has "doubts" of a weight he can mail me personal.

Regards,

Dear Willie,
I am very sorry that you feel attacked by my posting. I confess that it was a bit direct. But I understood from your messages, that also you were in doubt about these pumpkin weights.

It is not my intention to blame collectors for buying imitations. Everybody is free to buy anything and to make his own experience. I also have got some fakes in my collection from the very beginning of my search for these weights which help me now to separate fakes from genuine weights. I really want to help collectors not to pay vast sums for new weights which came just from the patina bath.

I recommended you to read the posting of Owen in "I have got this picture ...". He is an experienced collector and he writes: I ended up trading away ALL my pumpkin-based weights, because so many traders said that the guys up in Southern Shan State were doing serious copy work and had put a lot of effort into this series. They were reportedly melting down broken weights from the same period in order to get the metallurgy correct, and putting a great deal of attention into details. When one trader showed me several that he said he personally knew to be copies – and I would have certainly said they were real – that’s when I cleared them out from my collection.

And jackatpole adds: I have avoided these Group 6 Birds for the same reason. There seem to be way to many available with the embossed bird panel and script, and in great condition!

I have 28 years of experience classifying these weights and I have never seen genuine pumpkin weights which had such a rough surface like yours. I repeat myself: Genuine pumpkin weights are extremely rare, so I doubt that even Frazer Lu's and Gear's publications show only original pieces. In 1980 I was lucky to find a lot of 3 of these weights, but until the end of 1982 they didn't cross my way in Burma any more.

In general genuine weights which could be bought easily 30 years ago have become quite rare and were replaced in the meantime by huge quantities of fakes. The collector of today has to face that fact.

I hope you understand my intentions now a bit better.
Regards
hartmutmollat

Some, more smooth ones !
Same like other weights. Not two look the same. There are always differences.

A pity, I see only small collectors put some pictures on this forum.
Collecting (weights) is sharing !!!!!!!
Big collectors share some weights with others !!!

For E-bay buyers: Plenty of copies now, 04-01-2010, for sale !!
So beware !

I can only repeat my former postings.
I regard all 10 pieces shown by Willi as not genuine. The main characteristics are the rough surfaces and the strange and inhomogeneous forms. Pay attention to the amateurish letters at No. 8. He gave us an interesting look at the variety the fakers are producing „pumpkin weights“.
hartmutmollat

All three very beautiful. I wish I could have them in my collection !

Mr. Mollat all these weights are checked not only by different weightsellers, but also by Thai (about 10) relic sellers/collectors. And these Thai relic sellers/collectors look with a loup. The only right way to be sure. The number 8 you where talking about I have also on a picture from a very famous big collector. So, mr. Mollat if you know nothing about this and you have no weights like this it is more smart to be silent.
Today it is 05-05-2010 and I warn again this forum for things happening NOW on E-Bay !!!
Greed, trust and wishfull thinking can end in disappointment !!!

Greetings to all!

As usual, I begin with an apology for the long absence. Mea culpa.

I do hope Willie doesn’t get too mad. While Herr Molat is a bit more conservative than am I on these matters, I pay very close attention to his opinions. I am a bit more willing to accept variations, but the sheer range of reproductions cannot be denied.

I found and spent time in the small village in the Shan hills where the best copies are made. While the “master” would not meet with me, I did have the chance to sit with several other craftsmen while they produced various items for the tourist market. I was as utterly stunned by the remarkable skills as I was by the crude methods used.

I am afraid that I must agree with Hartmut regarding all of the pumpkin-based weights in this thread. I would say that every one is a reproduction. That said, there are several that I would consider collecting, were they offered to me, simply because I like certain aspects of them. (Like the cross-fertilization of styles.) BUT, I would be buying them as reproductions not authentic weights. The price would be accordingly.

I also agree quite clearly with Hartmut on the qualifications of traders. Even “big traders”, with very nice shops, etc., will insist on the legitimacy of weights without actually knowing very much about them. In many, if not most, cases, they are not trying to be dishonest, but actually do not really know. Selling various objects over many years may, but does not guarantee, actual knowledge. Having watched fabulous “antique” weights produced in front of my own eyes did a lot to educate me in this regard.

I do not monitor Ebay, but reading this thread I had to go look. I particularly went to the “completed listings” to see what items had sold and at what price. Wow! Some fools have been paying large $$ for obvious fakes.

So, bottom line, I stand by my comments made ages ago. A true pumpkin weight is difficult to verify, but the reproductions are pretty clear. Given the techniques used in reproductions, and the remarkable consistency of certain style errors, it is highly certain that all of these here are repros.

While I am still planning to eventually publish a work on these (don’t hold your breath, tho), one of the major arguments made to me by several serious collectors is that such images would only help the fabricators make better copies. This is serious food for thought.

In my interviews of the craftsmen in that village, only a few had seen many “real” weights. The only legitimate weights that passed their way were the broken ones soon to be melted. It is why they make consistent mistakes in styling. (And perhaps one of the reasons why the “master” wouldn’t meet with me.)

So, do not be angry. We’ve all (probably) been fooled a few more times than we would like, and have paid serious money for reproductions. But, I take that as simply part of the challenge, part of the gamesmanship in collecting.

Cheers,

Owen

Thank you for your answer mr. Owen.
I know there are nice copies for sale. Long time ago I bought many of them. A pity is I sold them all (also telling that it were copies of course). The difference of a copy and a good one with a good 'eye', I think you can see. I can tell you: some of the birds are repaired with brass material while the bird is bronze !! They all have pickels or holes (not air holes) in them so you can see they are old. Also not compare it with acid holes. Some have a nice patina. The first, a big pumpkin, they cleaned it with a hammer and an ax (I believe), to get the ground of it. A copier would not do this !! Why ? These birds have the same holes in them than the 'normal' old Royal weights we know from the book of Gear. I showed them to many Boeddha relic collectors. They all told me: very old !
And when this would be true than many birds/lions in the books of Gear and Braun are copies. So collectors can better throw away these books ?
And now to a personal story of you from 15-10-2007. 'A True Garuda Weight' . In the thread: Burmese Animal shaped weights, miscellaneous.
This is NOT a Garuda weight, as you told to us, but a Phoenix, the bird who has a rebirth and rises out of his ashes out of the fire. It is Burmese, for sure, and will be around 1800. This you did not see and cannot see in a copyfactory. This you have to know.